1993

International Telephone Conference

Transcript of Proceedings,

Some Observations on Belted Galloways

Correspondence from William Storrie

8 May, 1993

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International Telephone Conference

Preamble

  1. Belted Galloways as a breed are on the threshold of either becoming a major breed of cattle or falling back into obscurity. There are over five thousand breeding females currently active in the world. Most countries with registration societies are experiencing a geometric growth of their national herds. Though the number of herds with fifty or more animals is on the decline in all countries with the possible exception of the United States, the numbers of small to moderate sized herds have experienced an explosion similar to that experienced by the numbers of animals themselves.

  2. As many of the most important animals may no longer be bred in or part of the large frequently visited herds, an alternate method of communication could do much to assist all breeders in identifying appropriate animals to assist them in achieving their herd improvement goals, and consequently contribute to the improvement of the Belted Galloway breed as a whole.

  3. The method used by most major breeds of cattle is called Expected Progeny Differences (EPDs). These EPDs tend to be both general to cattle and specific to the individual identifying traits of the breed. Thus topics as diverse as growth rates, genetic abnormalities and hide coloration can all be recorded. Publication of this material can be used to improve breed performance, and adaptability to varying environmental conditions. Such a database has assisted the Angus breed to ride the crests of the American beef industry production waves for the last twenty years. Today, it is possible to use the Angus sire summary to find the genetics capable of producing almost any type of calf. If the same could be said about Belted Galloways, we would be the owners of truly useful decorative cattle.

  4. While the Belted Galloway breed is still of manageable size, we stand the chance of establishing a more comprehensive database on our cattle. Thus, a set of records can evolve that is of greater use to breeders, registered and commercial. Any time the risk of using an agricultural product can be reduced the value of the product increases for potential customers. Currently, EPDs on Angus bulls easily increase their sale prices 500 to 1000 U.S. dollars over their identical brothers lacking EPDs.

  5. The purpose of this meeting is to give significant breeders of Belted Galloways a forum to make known their thoughts, hopes and reservations about the future of the breed as we proceed into the next century, and to jumpstart the creation of a method for the quantification and qualification of the animals so that the international herd can expand as a vibrant and healthy breed of cattle.

  6. The meeting will be conducted via a telephone conference call on May 8th at 9:30 P.M. Greenwich Meridian Time. This will be early morning on May 9th in Australia and New Zealand. If anyone has problems determining the hour of the call in their area do not hesitate calling John or Lynn Jeffords for assistance.

  7. Everyone will be given up to five minutes of time to express their concerns about Belted Galloways and to present any topics they feel might be beneficial to breeders worldwide. The chair will then open discussion on topics as desired. Volunteers will be formed into committees to address the needs of developing EPDs, and any other topics determined to be important by the participants.

  8. The chair will request a suitable date for a second meeting and a list of questions to be answered either through the post or at the subsequent meeting.

Participants:

  1. Max Auld, Helensville, New Zealand

  2. Dr. A.R.C. Butson, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

  3. A.H. Chatfield, Jr., Rockport, Maine U.S.A.

  4. Grahame Clinton, Wanganui, New Zealand

  5. Hugh Crawford, Carmangay, Alberta, Canada

  6. Arie and Erica Eyles, Denver, Victoria, Australia

  7. Dwight Howard, Rockport, Maine U.S.A.

  8. Mrs. Hannelore Huss-Mastall, Elbtal-Hagenmell, Germany

  9. John and Lynn Jeffords, Iron Mountain, Wyoming U.S.A.

  10. P. Andre LeMaistre, Freeport, Maine U.S.A.

  11. Mary McClellan, Leeds, Alabama U.S.A.

  12. Hume MacDonald, Heathfield, S.A., Australia

  13. John McIlwraith, Puslinch, Ontario, Canada

  14. Guy MacPherson, Kaitaia, New Zealand

  15. Bob Maddern, Braidwood, New South Wales, Australia

  16. Peter McKeon, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

  17. Darrell Reimer, Alden, Minnesota U.S.A.

  18. Don Robertson, Phelpston, Ontario, Canada

  19. Marlin C. Sherbine, Somerset, Pennsylvania U.S.A.

  20. George Sproat, Borgue, Kirkcudsbirghtshire, Scotland

  21. William Storrie, Bathgate, West Lothian, Scotland

  22. Miss Flora Stuart, Port William, Wigtownshire, Scotland

  23. Peter Sutherland, Albury, New South Wales, Australia

  24. Albert and Dorothy Tietig, Georgetown, Ohio U.S.A.

Transcript

May 8, 1993

John Jeffords

  1. I think the biggest purpose of this exercise is to contact the different areas where people raise Belted Galloways so that there is a better means for all of us to improve the breed we love so much, we will try conference calls to see if they work.

?    ?

  1. You are fading away, John.

John Jeffords

  1. Can you hear me now? I do not know how to get the operator so what I will do is I will send the tape copy to the transcriber in Denver and she will be able to take care of it from there I guess. Okay. The first thing is that Andy LeMaistre had a pattern for giving people a time to speak. I do not have his pattern I just have the pattern of everybody in the list as it goes down that I have here and he rearranged it for himself. We will go from the top of the list on the little brochure that we sent out to you. There are two people that I think we are all very happy to

  2. have with us. One is A.H. Chatfield Jr., who is, I guess, our senior Belted Galloway breeder in the world. He is our oldest member that I know of. Mr. Chatfield?

A.H. Chatfield

  1. Yes?

John Jeffords

  1. I would like to welcome you very much and I am sure most everybody else would like to welcome you as well. Do you want to say anything? We will allow you to have precedence over everybody else here.

A.H. Chatfield

(Founder of Belted Galloway Society)

  1. Thank you very much. Greetings from Aldermere Farm. We enjoy visits, whenever people are in a position to drop by. The progress made in our own herd is amply shown by our show and sale records. Since the start of the herd we have had very helpful, competent advice, from the State Department of Agriculture and the University of Maine Extension Beef Specialist. We have aimed to produce the best beef animal that is possible. We have been very enthusiastic about our Belties because we believe they represent the modern beef animal which is so much in demand today. I have been concerned, as I am sure many of you have, by the fact that despite many years of careful breeding we have been unable to eliminate white on legs or above or between the hoof, and in consequence ...

Operator

  1. Excuse me. Mr. LeMaistre is on the call.

A.H. Chatfield

  1. What?

Operator

  1. Mr. LeMaistre is on the call.

A.H. Chatfield

  1. Do you want me to continue or not?

Andy  LeMaistre

(Chairman and Past President of the Belted Galloway Society)

  1. Yes. Mr. Chatfield? Thank you, would you please continue. I just wanted everyone to know that I apologize. I was unavoidably delayed and am pleased to be with you. Please continue.

A.H. Chatfield

  1. Good. Well, to continue, this has to do with marking. The experienced breeders whom I have had the privilege of knowing on various visits to Scotland, and England, and I particularly refer to George Sproat's father, Faed Sproat, whom I saw on every occasion we were over there. George Malcolm and Jack Graham and others have impressed on me that these white markings are so ingrained in the breed that they cannot be eliminated. Last year we had a visit with a man in Vermont who has done a lot for the Dutch Belted Dairy Breed. As you all know, they look like a Belted Galloway and that they are black with a white belt, but they have horns and a short coat, and in response to my question about markings he said that they had given up trying to eliminate the white and have concentrated on the dairy qualities of the animal. Which I thought was an interesting observation and which I felt I should pass on to all of you. To me I think it is a most serious problem because many good bulls have had to be castrated because they had a little white on some part of a hoof, or even above it, and we should constantly bear in mind that the ultimate purpose is raising beef animals and that this has nothing to do with the quality of the meat. So I pass that on as a thought to be considered by you all. Thank you very much for your time.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. John, it is Andy LeMaistre. Where are you in the meeting and how can I help? I apologize for being tardy.

John Jeffords

  1. We just started and Mr. Chatfield was the first person to speak and after Mr. Chatfield spoke ...

Albert Tietig

  1. Yeah, so who is next after Chatfield?

John Jeffords

  1. After Chatfield will be Flora Stuart, because she is the President of The Belted Galloway Society of Great Britain.

Albert Tietig

  1. I understand.

John Jeffords

  1. We all, I guess are descendants and all of our herds are descended from in some form or another. And Flora?

Flora Stuart

(President of the Belted Galloway Cattle Society)

  1. Yes?

John Jeffords

  1. Are you there?

Flora Stuart

  1. Yes I am here, John.

John Jeffords

  1. Do you want to say anything to the group of people joined here at the moment?

Flora Stuart

  1. I am having a bit of trouble hearing you.

John Jeffords

  1. Well you are free to address the assembled Belted Galloway Breeders, Flora.

Flora Stuart

  1. I have got George Sproat here and he would like to have a word too.

John Jeffords

  1. Very good.

Flora Stuart

  1. Basil Wilson is here.

John Jeffords

  1. Okay.

Flora Stuart

  1. We think this is marvelous, it must be a bit of Belted Galloway history, having a conference like this. It is wonderful to hear so many people taking part. What are you wanting us to say?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Well, I think this is what we would like to do, this is Andy LeMaistre speaking, I will try to help out. I apologize again for being tardy. I have given some thought as to how the meeting should go and if each of the participants that would like to speak and if there were other officers that have signed on from various Belted Galloway Societies, I think it would be helpful if each of them made a statement. They do tend to represent the various breed societies in their country. So if you could make a short statement, or if you are prepared to, regarding where you think Belted Galloways should go and how an international organization could help promote the Belted Galloway then that would be most helpful to help stimulate us to move forward with other discussion. And John, just to back up, did we have a roll call, so that we know everyone that is on?

?    ?

  1. Yes.

John Jeffords

  1. We have had roll call and if anyone has been added to the call since that time they have not been identified yet they should make themselves known I guess.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Okay. Well let me ask at this time, are there other people that had not had the opportunity when the original roll call was made that are now on line? If there are would anyone speak up at this time please?

John Jeffords

  1. They are all on.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Okay. Well I think Flora, are you prepared to make a statement? Would you like to make a statement?

Flora Stuart

  1. Well, yes. Is it to do with the paper that you sent 'round or just anything?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I think it could be anything, Flora. I think it should reflect what your ... This is my personal opinion, is that what we are trying to do is to see whether or not those breeders of significance around the world have strong feelings about how and what should be done to promote and preserve Belted Galloways.

Flora Stuart

  1. Yes.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. This is really the first opportunity that we have been able to assemble in some forum as an international assembly and so this is really an opportunity to speak out or if you would wish to defer to a later time that is fine as well. Flora Stuart I think the general feeling over here is that the cattle must be kept Galloway. We do not really want to bring in other breeds other than crossing with Galloways, because we feel that if you bring in anything else we are going to lose the Galloway characteristics. They must be hardy and able to live on rough ground and convert that sort of grazing to beef without too much extra feeding and without housing. I feel we still need to do a lot of improvement in the hindquarters of the cattle and I just wonder how EPDs are going to work for Belted Galloways and are there are enough animals to make it effective. Because if you are buying an Angus bull there are a lot of very good bulls to choose from. You want to have the best of the best, so going through EPDs you might find what you want, but. if you are looking for a Belted Galloway bull you are lucky just to find the best one that you can. You have not got that big of a choice. That is what I wonder about.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Well ...

Flora Stuart

  1. There are not enough animals involved. What are everybody's views on that?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. So a topic which you would like to see discussed is, would EPDs be of benefit to Belted Galloway cattle. I have developed a column of issues that I think need to be discussed. Whether or not we have time at this meeting or at a future meeting, but I think EPDs would certainly be one of the topics which should go into that column. As we go through and discuss each participant's comments from their own personal perspective that perhaps all of us should keep this issues column and then at the end of the meeting what we could do is go down through it quickly and see which items the majority of the group feel we should pursue. Well, Flora thank you very much for your statement. John, did you establish some other order for people to speak at this point.

John Jeffords

  1. I was about to establish order but I think we should call your order.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Well, my thought was that in addition to Flora, who is president of the British Galloway Society, that we also have with us other society officials. Is Barry McAlley here with us?

John Jeffords

  1. Nope. Barry is unavailable.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. He is unavailable. Okay. I wondered whether or not we had someone from the Australian Society who was on this conference, that we could call upon to speak. Is Peter McKeon?

Peter McKeon

(Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)

  1. Yes, I am on the line.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Peter, the reason I would like to get a statement from some of the officers of societies is that I think you represent that group, you are in that official position for, I hope, some valid reason. Do you have a statement? Were you prepared to make a statement?

Peter McKeon

  1. Yes, I would like to make a statement. Firstly, I would like to congratulate John and Lynn on the efforts that they are making on behalf of Belted Galloways. I think this is a fantastic achievement and I think it is something that is long overdue. I think that John's statement in his preamble that he sent out to everyone is very valid. That if we are going to make Belted Galloways an international breed and a breed that can be recognized by beef breeders everywhere, that all Belted Galloway breeders internationally and all of the countries are going to have to get together to do something to make it work and I don't think that we can make it work just in Australia or the U.K. or in Canada or in the States. I think possibly that there are a couple of things that we should consider and John sort of raised these. I think that an international register of cattle possibly could do something. Flora is right on the matter of EPDs, I do agree with Flora in a way that there might not be enough animals but there are other performance characteristics which we could measure which could be eye muscle area or testicle size and we could set some basic standards, which might help in performance recording. The other matter which I think probably comes to attention from my discussion with breeders in different countries is that there are different standards for breeding up to Belted Galloways. We have our full bloods, which are no problems at all, but the grading up requirements in Australia are different from what they are in the U.K., probably different than what they could be in Canada or the States and I think we need to probably have an international agreement as to how we are going to grade up these cattle so that we can get more of them out and that we have a universal standard. I would think that an international register, some performance recording and this grading up requirement are probably the three most important factors that I can gather from my members here in Australia.

Albert Tietig

(Past President of The Belted Galloway Society)

  1. John?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Mr. Tietig?

Albert Tietig

  1. Yes.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. It is Andy LeMaistre.

Albert Tietig

  1. Yeah, Andy. Dorothy and I, and I am sure Dr. Butson, can do it better than I can, but I think a man buys a Belted Galloway bull and he has got a whole bunch of Herefords or this or that and this constant cross breeding with various animals other than a regular black or dun Galloway isn't the thing to start with. I think Dorothy wrote a letter to council and a few members that with proper conformation a Beltie and ... wait a minute. An unknown Beltie might be considered if it has proper conformation and proper markings but this constant breeding to any breed that comes down the line is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. So as an issue, Mr. Tietig, you would say that the

  2. grading up or the initial cross should be controlled?

Albert Tietig

  1. I think so.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes. Okay.

Albert Tietig

  1. I am very much in favor of that and think Dr. Butson probably feels the same way. He is on the phone I believe.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Okay. Very good.

Albert Tietig

  1. I would like to say something about it. Just for two seconds. I am sorry; we used to raise registered Angus we had quite a large herd and we kept three of the best show cows we had and when cross breeding was opened up, I am sorry we ever did it. I am all for sticking with the regular, if you are going to cross breed it has to be a Beltie with Galloway.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Can I ask a question, Albert?

Albert Tietig

  1. Yeah.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. What you are saying is that you retained three Angus from your herd which you then used in an upgrade program with a purebred Belted Galloway bull?

Albert Tietig

  1. Oh yeah.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes. You were disappointed in the results of that?

Albert Tietig

  1. Well, we were not particularly disappointed but we had to start at a half and it was a long way up and we had some mis-marks along the line and the bull calf we could not use because it would be cross-bred and the bull calves were steered. Well it just did not work as far as I am concerned. I would rather see somebody start out with purebred Belted Galloways from the very start. It might hurt our sales and purchases, but that is the way I feel about it. I wish Dr. Butson would make a statement.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much Mr. Tietig. I appreciate your input. Mr. McKinnon, is it McKeon?

Peter McKeon

  1. McKeon we pronounce it.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much for your statement. Did you have anything else to add or was your statement finished?

Peter McKeon

  1. I think that is my statement at the moment. There might be something else towards the end of the hook-up. Arie Eyles Excuse me. Arie Eyles speaking. Just wondering if Mr. Hume MacDonald, who is also president of another Galloway society in Australia would like to make a statement? Would that be in order that Mr. Hume MacDonald also made a statement also on behalf of Australia because there are two societies in Australia.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. That would be excellent. Very good. Thank you, sir. Mr. MacDonald, are you there?

Hume MacDonald

(President of the Australian Belted Galloway Cattle Breeders Association)

  1. I am.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good.

Hume MacDonald

  1. I would like to congratulate you on arranging this and I would support, basically, what Peter has had to say in most of those areas. I think probably my society would have a somewhat different view in relation, however, to the breeding up program.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. MacDonald, just a minute please. I am not sure everyone can hear. Would you try again now?

Hume MacDonald

  1. All right. I am not sure what was missed so I will start again. I would support what Peter has had to say in relation to potential benefits of international register and to some degree of performance recording data, however, in relation to a breeding up I believe that our society strongly supports the broadening of the genetic pool by the use of purebred Belted Galloway bulls over purebred Angus based breeding stock. Bull progeny cannot be utilized until they have five generations of breeding. With that exception I think I can support everything that Peter has had to say. I believe we have to go forward as a breed throughout the world and the thing that is obviously missing for most Belted Galloway breeders is the ability to obtain a  ompletely fresh blood line and such a register and the ease of availability of semen around the world, if that can be arranged, would I think greatly assist such a program.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you very much for your statement. We certainly appreciate that. Is there anyone represented from New Zealand that is on the line if Barry is not there?

?    ?

  1. I think it is Mr. MacPherson.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. MacPherson?

Guy MacPherson

  1. This be him.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes. For New Zealand would you be able to speak to us regarding the general feeling of the New Zealand breeders, sir?

Guy MacPherson

  1. Well, I hope that I do not put my foot in the door together, but we have been very exact and very emphatic on what we think should be the concept of Belted Galloways and we do not go along with the idea of breeding up. We just do not, because, someone just said you put a Beltie bull. You cannot put a Beltie bull over anything and what do you finish up with? Anything with a belt, but not necessarily a Beltie. To, to me, and I think I can state this positively, but he can differ from, he will tell you if he does, is that the Beltie is an animal that has been bred for an environment, invariably a very tough environment and I personally run my cattle under commercial conditions so that they do not get any pampering whatsoever. I, unlike the guy who says that the Beltie has an inherent weakness in its markings, I do not go along with that. I believe that if it has a weakness you get rid of the weakness. You do not breed from that weakness because if you do you just extend the life of that breeding and the idea as far as I am concerned is to get rid of it. There is nothing worse than a Beltie that is not a Beltie. It is possible that in the background somewhere in the breeding of the Belties there were aspects that were brought that are there. Well the quickest way to get them out is to breed them out as far as I am concerned and I think the average New Zealand Beltie breeder will go along with that. If they do not they will feel free to let you know.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you very much for that statement.

Guy MacPherson

  1. You are welcome.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I think that is a good summary as it relates to breeding up. What other countries ...? We had Flora speak. I am wondering if we have any Canadian representatives on the line and I am sorry I do not know everyone that signed on from the roll call. Do we have some Canadians that would like to step forward?

Hannelore Mastall

  1. This is Hannelore Mastall.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. From Germany?

Hannelore Mastall

  1. I am speaking for the German Galloway Society.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Please proceed.

Hannelore Mastall

  1. We have been the first Belted breeders in Germany and I think now the country with the biggest Galloway cattle population in the world, but, not only Belties; blacks, duns and white, the Belted Galloway are the part of it. So in Germany it belongs to the rare breeds and we have a closed herd book for them. For us it is very important that they are nice looking, that they have good belts, and no white feet, so, I think the same like Mr. MacPherson, a nice hair coat and most of all that the Belted Galloway are bigger than the blacks or the duns and heavier. Our experience is, and we are doing it now for eight years, we have all the color and that they should be a little bit more quiet into the temperament compared to the other Galloways. But, what we found is that they have a very good order, a long body and that they are very easy tokeep, easier than the other colors. So this is the main thing that I wanted to say for the statement.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you very much. We appreciate that. Are you the only representative from Germany with us?

Hannelore Mastall

  1. Yes, yes.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Good, I appreciate you making the statement for them. Do we have someone from Canada that would be available?

Dr. Butson

(Director of the Canadian Galloway Association)

  1. Dr. Butson.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Dr. Butson, how are you sir?

Dr. Butson

  1. Very well.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, if you could proceed. Thank you.

Dr. Butson

  1. I was interested in the comments today so far. Mr. Al Tietig mentioned the business of grading up being controlled and restricted to Galloways. In 1987 the Canadian Galloway association which has, as part of its membership Belted Galloways, decided that we would allow grading up with a solid color, either bull or cow, with a belted animal. This has been tried. The animals would be registered as half belted, three quarters belted, seven eighths, etc. There is no regulation at present to admit these animals into the herd book proper for the Belteds. I have been extremely disappointed, personally. I have had about twelve animals that have been crossbred in this manner. We have had a few good belts but by and large they either turn out incomplete belts, solid black, or solid dun. I have been rather disappointed.

  2. Now, we have tried to get information from the other Canadian breeders who have been doing this cross breed between Galloways solid color and Belteds and I have been very frustrated by the total apathy of the Canadian breeders in giving me the information. We have had twelve registered as half bred or three quarter bred Belted Galloway in a Belted Galloway-Galloway cross. I very much suspect that this is going to come to nothing and I would be a little on my guard against promoting this too much. At present I have absolutely no success, except for two of us, who have been prepared to say what our percentage of failures has been in such a cross breeding up program and I get a lot of information across the coffee table or with a glass of beer but that is anecdotal and from memory and is not always at all reliable. So much for that.

  3. The other thing which I would welcome guidance on is what type of cattle should we be aiming for. We see, especially in North America, the longer legged cattle which are considerably larger than the standard Galloway, the traditional Galloway of Britain, and I just have severe doubts if this is really the direction in which this breed should be going. More and more the housewife is wanting smaller cuts. The question of calving ease, I think that if we are going to go for bulls that are the type of bull that gets the prize in North America, it will result in a lot of problems with calving ease. Or a lot of difficult calving. I would also like some direction in knowing should we be aiming for larger hind ends for our Belted Galloway. By and large they do tend to have a small hind end and it is the hindquarter that sells best. I am well aware that there are many who like the Belted Galloway for their appearance, but I think we should be concentrating on a viable, vital, beef breed. That is all I have to say.

  4. Thank you very much.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you Dr. Butson. Could I have another participant who would like to make a statement?

Graeme Clinton

  1. Graeme Clinton from New Zealand here.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Graeme Clinton.

Graeme Clinton

  1. Yes.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, sir.

Graeme Clinton

  1. We used to upgrade quite a few years ago, and we discovered that after the second or third generation of crossing, recess sets in and animals have not got the conformation or type that they should have. They still look like cattle but they have not got a really good type.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Clinton, could I ask one question just for my own clarification and perhaps for some of the other participants, as to what kind of a breeding up program, what was the original first crosses.

Graeme Clinton

  1. That particular time they were Angus. 30 years ago we abandoned the Angus Crossbreeding programme and bought all of the available commercial Belted Galloway that were for sale and built up the herd that way with a better type of animal.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Angus?

Graeme Clinton

  1. Yeah, and after the second or third generation crossing recess sets in.

?    ?

  1. I am not familiar with that term. What do you mean by 'crossing recess'?

Graeme Clinton

  1. They have not got the quality of straight Galloway.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. They do not have the quality of a straight Galloway.

Graeme Clinton

  1. By using a commercial Galloway resulted in a far better looking animal than a crossbred one.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Clinton, this is Andy LeMaistre, again just to clarify the point, what you are saying is that in the multiple crossing that the hybrid vigor just goes away.

Graeme Clinton

  1. Yes, the hybrid vigor is there with the first cross but then after that it seems to disappear. For the registered animals we tried to get the bigger back ends on them and eliminate any white feet. That always seems to come up ever so often, the white feet. We have just been trying to get them with better back ends and keep the size in them and we seem to be doing all right that way so far. We have a few on the upgrading scheme now, from commercial Belted Galloways but some of them are not as good as we would like them to be. So we just put them out with the commercial cattle.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I see.

Graeme Clinton

  1. Other than that we just fine points to try to keep the standard of the type and the good quality ones.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. To try to keep the existing standard that is used in New Zealand currently, to keep that standard in place?

Graeme Clinton

  1. Yes.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good.

Graeme Clinton

  1. I think that is about all at the moment.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much Mr. Clinton. Could I have another participant that would like to comment?

Marlin Sherbine

  1. Yeah, Andy, Marlin Sherbine here, United States. I am a late comer. I am about midway through the thing here. I agree with Dr. Butson, I am a newcomer but I have selected animals from quite a few herds and I am not in favor of crossing five generations to get to something that you can register. We have been working with our best females doing semen and embryo work to come up with I think is the best and I have not gotten there yet. I need a lot more than the four years I have been working at it so far. Also the commercial aspect, the mis-marked, the excess males, I feel we have to develop a market for them beyond actually taking them to market which has not been good.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much Mr. Sherbine. Could I have another participant that would like to comment?

Hugh Crawford

(Director of the Canadian Galloway Association)

  1. Hugh Crawford from Alberta.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, Mr. Crawford.

Hugh Crawford

  1. I am a Galloway breeder: the Belted Galloway part of our herd is quite small. I have, however, had some formal training in genetics and as such have been called upon by the Canadian Galloway Association on several occasions to assist them with rules and regulations and make comments and suggestions. It is from this base that I would like to make a few comments.

  2. For the most part I would disagree with Mr. Chatfield and Mr. Butson. I would suggest that the significant percentage of the mis-marking problems that the breed now has are a direct resuit of poorly designed upbreeding programs in the past. The genetics that causes the belt is dominant, thus it can mask other white colour pattern genetics.

  3. From the start upbreeding has been allowed using cows of any breed. There should have been a hard fast rule that those animals had to have been solid coloured. Given that that rule was not in place the Belted Galloway has picked up a significant amount of genetics for other colour patterns. It is the genetics for those other colour patterns that is causing white feet and the mis-shaping of many belts. It will be difficult to correct the mis-marking problems that are now evident but they are the result of not having carefully planned the upbreeding programs at the start.

  4. The fact that the belt is dominant is a complication. Given that belting is dominant it can cover multitude of undesirable colour patterns that can then re-appear in later generations. Each and every time that a Belted Galloway is crossed with a solid coloured animal and the progeny are not properly belted either: (a) The Belted Galloway was not homozygous for belting or (b The Belted Galloway carried extraneous genetics for other colour patterns.

  5. The Canadian Galloway Association attempted to address problems in its Appendix for Belted Galloway crosses. When the Appendix was opened it was stipulated that the only animals other than Belted Galloway that could be used were purebred Galloway. Hopefully, thus, not bringing in other colour pattern genetics. The Canadian program also includes a procedure for identifying homozygous belted animals. The procedure has yet to be used by a Belted Galloway breeder in Canada but it is simple and is based on sound genetic principles. It is a program that could and would work cheaply and effectively if used properly.

  6. It seems to me that the Belted Galloway Breeder has two things to be selecting for—beef aesthetics. It is thus very important that the regulations of your Associations are based on sound genetic principles--not just the latest fad in cattle up-breeding. I would suggest that the majority of the colour pattern problems today in the Belted Galloway are a direct result of having failed to seek out

  7. and apply sound genetic principles in the past. That may

  8. sound a little harsh but I am quite convinced.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, Mr. Crawford. Do you have any additions to

  2. that?

Hugh Crawford

  1. Not at the moment.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Well, I think that is fine. If I were to summarize that in

  2. terms of an issue to be addressed, would you agree that

  3. we need to have a better genetic program or a better

  4. understanding of the genetics that surround the Belted

  5. Galloway breed?

Hugh Crawford

  1. To me that is the most important point. Unfortunately,

  2. given that that was not done in the past, the Belted

  3. Galloway as a breed is now carrying a great deal of what

  4. is, in effect, genetic garbage. Belted Galloways carry a

  5. load of extraneous genetic information that has

  6. inadvertently put it in their gene pool by not having a

  7. sound up-breeding program from the start. Damage has

  8. been done, but it is not too late to start to correct it.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, and I can appreciate that and I think that is an

  2. excellent point to make. Thank you very much Mr.

  3. Crawford. Is there another participant that would like to

  4. comment?

Bob Maddern

(Federal Councilor, Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)

  1. Yes, Bob Maddern here from Australia.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir.

Bob Maddern

  1. I was a professional geneticist before breeding Belted Galloways. I could not hear Hugh Crawford terribly clearly and I think I am agreeing with him in that there are other genetic factors causing these other white patterns, like the white feet, in the Belted Galloway. I am very interested in cooperation and collecting data between breeders on broken belts and white feet and looking at the genetics of it and how we might remove it.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Excellent. Thank you very much for that statement. Did you have other comments to make or simply as it relates to the genetics?

Bob Maddern

  1. Yeah, my comments are similar to Mr. Butson on the grading up. I found a very poor percentage of properly marked animals from upgrading programs to Galloways.

  2. Thank you.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much sir. What was you name again sir?

Bob Maddern

  1. Bob Maddern, Australia.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much. Is there another participant that would like to comment?

Bill Storrie

(Council Member - Belted Galloway Cattle Society)

  1. Good evening to you men. This is Bill Storrie from Scotland.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir.

Bill Storrie

  1. Can you hear me?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir. I can. I am sorry I did not catch your name though.

Bill Storrie

  1. Bill Storrie.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir, Mr. Storrie. I received your letter. Bill Storrie You got my letter, well good. First of all let me apologize, I thought I was not going to be able to take part in this conference and I took the liberty of sending an introductory letter to all of the participants and hoped it would serve as an introduction.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Well, I wanted to compliment you on the letter and I did receive it and had a chance to read it. Thank you very much.

Bill Storrie

  1. I did not know whether everybody would receive it before the conference.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Please go ahead with your statement, sir.

Bill Storrie

  1. Well I am inclined to agree with Hugh Crawford. Well, first of all, let me say I am a conservationist 100%. I work with an enclosed nucleus, and I have not gone out to seek an out cross for a long time now. I started off with foundation animals and we have not had the the white foot problem because the lines that were giving us the white foot problem were just discarded. And then we kept everything and everything is very tightly inbred and we do not have a problem. Every time we try to introduce an out cross we bring back white feet and that, I think, coincides with Hugh Crawford and Bob Maddern's statements. Now I am principally concerned with increasing the number by embryo transfer and IVM/F and one of my friends in Canada there and Mr. Chatfield, have got some. Now there is enormous potential, but the only way that I can see to get the mark on the ground so that feeders and slaughterers can recognize a Beltie is to get the mis-marked bulls out working among commercial cattle. I do not mean Belties, I mean anybody needing a bull. If they could be encouraged to use a Beltie with a white foot, and the slaughterer could then recognize the value of the slaughter animal simply because he has got a mark on it, i.e. a belt. Now the Herefords have got a good initiative with their Baldy beef. What they are saying is that if you put a white face on an animal and you demonstrate it is a good commercial animal, it benefits the pedigree stock breeder and then his bulls come into demand, not necessarily his best bulls, but the bulls that he would normally slaughter. I think that is a way forward, get more animals on the ground and I prefer to have a closed herd book, for the original pool in the same way that I have got a closed nucleus from the stock that I have got. We breed heavy animals and I mean heavy. We have got cows weighing 750 kilos. That is a big, big animal. But, Dick Butson makes the point that big animals give high birth weights and high birth weights are not necessarily what we are looking for in a commercial situation. We should try to get big Beltie bulls used on optimum weight range cows so that we reduce the calving difficulty. Now if we go for EPD based on birth weight alone, we will simply compound the problem. And we need to bolt something else on the EPD, such as the mothering ability of the dam, longevity of the dam, and these other things which are unique Belted Galloway survival characteristics and if we do that it will just automatically follow that we have a market for the big, heavy bull to use on the range cow. I think a lot of the points have been covered.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, well thank you very much Mr. Storrie. Therefore, an issue would be the development of an EPD system whether or not it is the standard system that might be used by all the other breeds or one that is modified for Belted Galloways, this makes a lot of sense. At least it would give us a common ground by which to talk internationally about what it is we have or do not have.

Bill Storrie

  1. Could I just make another addendum to my statement, Mr. Chairman?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, go right ahead Mr. Storrie.

Bill Storrie

  1. We have got to look at Belties as the Beltie that will do

  2. best in New Zealand, Australia, Western America,

  3. Canada or the U.K. will be essentially a different kind of

  4. Beltie. I do not think that my big, heavy Belties here

  5. would necessarily do very well in Australia, because

  6. they are selected in a totally different environment and I

  7. think we really have got to cooperate internationally and

  8. recognize that maybe best of a small Beltie cow on

  9. rangeland in America, a heavier Beltie cow in New

  10. Zealand or wherever and certainly where we have a lot

  11. of good grass here, to go for the heavier Beltie.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, that is an excellent point. Thank you very much, Mr. Storrie.

Guy MacPherson

  1. Could I ask you a question?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. What I would like to do if possible, I am not sure who spoke to ask the question ...

Guy MacPherson

  1. MacPherson, New Zealand.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, Mr. MacPherson. I think what I would like to do is let all the participants that wished to make a statement, and then if you would reserve your question, what we will do is come back to address it after everyone has spoken. Does that make good sense? Is there another participant that would like to comment?

Arie Eyles

(Vice President, Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)

  1. Yes, Arie Eyles from Australia.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir. Go right ahead.

Arie Eyles

  1. We were lucky enough in the late seventies to be able to buy our base herd from New Zealand based on the Hikawei stud. That was the name of the stud in New Zealand that had been in existence for 26 years over there and we were fortunate enough even though we bought belted cows that were not very great in size, they were very well conformed and very heavy in their beef content for the size of the animal and they had good back ends. We have line bred to Boreland bulls that we were fortunate enough to get through cows that were imported into New Zealand and we have aimed at breeding, which we strongly believe in, a good line of cows, well formed, good conformation, milking ability, good feet and good back ends. The aspect that we are finding difficult because of the lack of bloodlines available here is to gradually increase the size of our cattle. What we do not want to do, and we do not want to see people doing, is increasing size too dramatically because we believe this brings in structural faults. We have gotten to the stage now where we are finding it difficult to be able to obtain a bloodline we can use without inbreeding. We congratulate this conference concept because we feel that it would be fantastic to have a worldwide genetic bank that is approved worldwide so that we can buy other bulls with confidence that are acceptable worldwide. This is the way for the breed to go forward. And that is basically what I would like to say. I agree with most of the statements, I think we can argue about white feet and discuss it and so forth, but the different breeders have different policies and I think each stud person is responsible for the keep of his cattle and people breed what they particularly like. It is possible to put good butts into the cattle and the greatest difficulty now is obtaining outcrosses when we have gone far enough with our line breeding.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, Mr. Eyles, thank you very much for those comments. Is there another participant that would like to comment?

Dwight Howard

  1. Andy, Dwight Howard.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Howard. How are you sir?

Dwight Howard

  1. I worked with Belted Galloways for 28 years here at Aldermere farm, and we have been on performance testing ever since '55, we have put rear-ends on our cows and bulls. We have mostly gone on conformation, growth and if it had a little white on its foot well we kind of forgot it. We have had to do this because our best cows that we have kept in a line that goes way, way back to Scotland had a little bit of white on their feet. At first we tried, we sold everything that had white, and then we got to looking at our records and we were selling our best animals. So, therefore we have changed our policy and are going by performance, to a great extent. I do not think that we are ever going to get rid of white feet. I think it would be a great mistake if we did because we are going to lose some of the greatest genetics that the Belted Galloway cattle have ever had. I guess that is what I would like to put across. Thank you.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much, Dwight. Is there another participant that would like to comment?

George Sproat

  1. Yes, George Sproat from Scotland.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Sproat.

George Sproat

  1. It is very nice to hear the the Boreland Herd getting a mention in the world because we have been exporting since 1947. We sent the first ones to New Zealand in 1967, Galloways in 1968, and I think it was '53 that we sent the first ones to America. Regarding white feet, around the mid-thirties in Scotland there was a bull going around the show circuit and it was at one show that the white foot was discovered when he was about seven years old. Now that bull did a lot of damage to bring white feet into the breed. This bull was later slaughtered after a kind of case about it once it was discovered that it had about seven inches of white. Which had been covered up for seven years at the time it appeared at the show. That bull did a lot of damage and it is going to take an awful long time to eliminate. The only way it can be eliminated is by people culling the white feet out or put them to commercial side, but in regard to Dwight's comment, invariably the white footed beast is the best beast in the place and we tried, as our society, of which I am the chairman of the council in this country, we tried to eliminate about six years ago and we were just about to get it passed when it all fell through.

  2. Unfortunately the white footed heifers are still allowed to be registered but we still do not encourage them. White footed bulls are not allowed or registered. Now in regard to grading up, having seen what has come in from Canada in the Galloways, Aberdeen Angus and the Herefords that have been using multinational breeds such as Chianina, Brahman, Marchieana and all the rest of it, some are like overgrown Holsteins. In some cases Holsteins have been used in the Angus. When you see some of the samples at the big national show, i.e. Royal Show at Stoneleigh, England some are like just planks of wood and that is not the way to upgrade. If we are going to upgrade the Belties they have got to come through I would say the Galloway breed and possibly another self colored animal, but not the Continental type. Because the Continental type will make them too big and in this economic day and age the bigger the animal the more it costs to feed. Regarding getting a Beltie into the butcher's, who the hell knows what it is once the skin is off it. Once it is in the shop, it can be anything. Once it is in the slaughter house there is no knowing what it is, once the skin is off it. Thank you very much and congratulations on your conference.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much Mr. Sproat, appreciate your comments. Is there another participant that would like to comment? I hear silence.

Mary McClellan

(Secretary of the Belted Galloway Society)

  1. Andy?

Mary McClellan

  1. Yes.

Mary McClellan

  1. Mary McClellan.

Mary McClellan

  1. Mary McClellan. Yes?

Mary McClellan

  1. On carcass evaluation.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, ma'am.

Mary McClellan

  1. I think we ought to spend a little time and money finding out what we really have in the way of a beef animal. I think it is very important to consider the cholesterol content, fat content, and be able to make a statement that really we can back up as to what we really have in a beef animal. And if we do have what the modern market wants then we should publicize it with data to back it up and proof. That is really all I have to say.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you, Ms. McClellan. Is there another participant that would like to comment?

Dick Butson

  1. Dick Butson. Can I speak to that point?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Dick, Mr. Butson, if we could first, because we are fast running out of time to allow initial statements, if there are any other people who would like to make just an initial statement then we would revert back to specific questions about various issues. Is there another participant that would like to comment?

Darrell Riemer

(President of American Galloway Breeders Association)

  1. Yes, this is Darrell Riemer from the American Galloway Breeders Association.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, Mr. Riemer.

Darrell Riemer

  1. I guess the biggest point I want to make on EPD is that there is such a small number of Galloways worldwide that most of the people are not going to be following the EPDs for their own choices. The EPD is basically to try to get the cattle out in the commercial herds, where it will do the breed the most good instead. I mean, you cannot survive as a breed unless you get the commercial man involved. I guess that is the main comment that I have. Thanks.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much, Mr. Riemer. Are there other comments from other participants at this time?

John McIlwraith

(Director of Canadian Galloway Association)

  1. John McIlwraith.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, John, please.

John McIlwraith

  1. How are you, Andy?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I am very well, sir. Please.

John McIlwraith

  1. Thank you for the time. As far as EPDs goes if a trait cannot be weighed or measured any other traits are subjective. You can set one goal that way, but if you are looking for mothering ability and stuff like that, that is only in the eye of the breeder. You have got so many traits that you want to go through. When you want to pick out a breed standard. As far as the belt goes, when I was looking for some cattle for a fella, the first question he asked me afterwards, after I had seen the cattle, he said, "How was the belt?" and I said, "I think you are going to have to call my wife and ask her because I did not see the belt, all I was looking at was the animal." George Sproat  just kind of hit me, I am shocked, he is telling me that Canadian Galloways are cross-bred, meaning solid color cattle, but that is his opinion. We would like to try and upgrade our cattle strictly without white feet. I agree with Hugh Crawford and his statement and it was interesting to hear from George Sproat about the bull that was used in Britain in the 30s. I would like to hang on and listen to any questions anybody has about EPDs. I would really like to go in that direction, have a worldwide measuring, even though there are different conditions that the cattle are kept under.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes.

John McIlwraith

  1. Which is especially evident in Canada. We can use one type of breed in Eastern Canada where you need a different type animal in Western Canada.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Well, thank you very much for your statement. Appreciate it. Are there other participants that would like to comment? Okay. Hearing none, what I would like to do is to address the questions that were raised. Mr. MacPherson had a question of Bill Storrie and we can entertain a couple of questions at this point but, I think given that we have approximately 15 to 18 minutes left in the conference, we also need to come to some consensus as to how to proceed for a future conference and what specific issues should be dealt with. It seems, from what the Chair has heard, that there is a commonality in most of the statements that people have made and what we now need to do, I think, is to refine that into simple statement of specific problems we want to attack and determine how we are going to proceed. But first, I would entertain Mr. MacPherson who had a question of Bill Storrie and if you are still prepared to ask that question why don't we take that at this time, Mr. MacPherson.

Guy MacPherson

  1. Okay, EPD is going to be different from every different person as to what he expects from it. Would it be possible to look at DNA patterns, would it be possible for example to pick out what each of us think are the ten or fifteen best animals in every herd throughout the world, run a DNA pattern over them and see if we get any uniformity. And see whether the white feet show a different DNA pattern to the others. Bill Storrie No it would not be possible. It would be impossibly costly.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Excuse me. Is that Mr. Storrie responding?

Bill Storrie

  1. Sorry?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Is that Mr. Storrie.

Bill Storrie

  1. Sorry, Mr. Chairman. I should have announced myself. I

  2. am responding to Mr. MacPherson.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good, sir.

Bill Storrie

  1. I think it would be so costly it would be completely impractical to do DNA testing. It would cost in this country, to do a proper DNA test on ten animals, it would cost 1500 to 1800 pounds and that is a lot of money. We have not got a probe for white feet so there is no way that you could look at a DNA sample and say that animal will pass on white feet. There is just no way of doing it.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. Storrie. Mr. MacPherson, your comment was that you did not agree or did not agree with that.

Bill Storrie

  1. I did a lot of parentage and blood typing but I did it out of curiosity.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I see.

Bill Storrie

  1. The consensus feed back is that a Belted Galloway, they certainly have no unique blood type, it is unlikely that we would ever be able to find the probe that would find any of the genetics off the belt, the white feet or anything else. If you look at the human experience, there are millions and billions of dollars spent on finding a probe just for one gene characteristic.

Guy MacPherson

  1. Thank you, Mr. Storrie.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right. Thank you very much to both Mr. MacPherson and Mr. Storrie for those comments. Is there another comment as it relates to that. There was, I believe, Max Auld is a geneticist as well?

Max Auld

  1. That is correct.

Bill Storrie

  1. Mr. Maddern in Australia.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes. There was someone else that commented.

Bill Storrie

  1. Bob Maddern may have a comment.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, Mr. Maddern, that is correct.

Bob Maddern

  1. It is Bob Maddern here. I could only agree with what Bill Storrie said the chance of finding a DNA probe for white feet is fairly remote and would be very expensive.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you for that comment, Mr. Maddern. Where there other questions that someone had? I believe Dick Butson, Dr. Butson?

Dick Butson

  1. Yes?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. You had a question I believe, I am not sure to whom it was or my notes are not orderly.

Dick Butson

  1. In reply to Mary McCiellan. The point about doing analysis of fat and cholesterol in Belted Galloway. I think this is something that really should be done but it may be prohibitively expensive. I was very enthused about this when I first heard about it, but the more I went into it the more I realized that a tremendous number of samples have to be taken. The inside round steak has only 2% fat, where the rib roasts, this is of an average animal, contains 7.5% fat so you are going to have to take a lot of standard samples from each carcass that you are examining. The other thing is, it is a popular misconception that the cholesterol is the worse offender in the diet. It is the animal fat in the diet that is probably a more important feature. I think that you are going to have to compare Belted Galloways with possibly the solid colored Galloways, certainly with Angus, and Hereford and Limousin, and you are going to have to do it at least five carcasses for this analysis. Each analysis costs about one hundred dollars, U.S., per analysis of fat and cholesterol. I think, you are looking in the neighborhood of about seven thousand dollars by the time you have done it all. I think it is something that maybe if we were a bigger society we should do, maybe it should be somehow financially funded by Belted breeders throughout the world and I think it is an important thing for the future. That is the only comment I have to make on that.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you very much, Dr. Butson. I think at this point what I would like to try to accomplish is to, as I said earlier, is to zero in on some specific issues that we would all agree need to be addressed and try to develop a procedure for either a telephone conference like we are having today or some other type of process in order to try to attack these issues to the benefit of all of our interests. I would entertain a comment from anyone if someone has thought through a pattern of procedure that they would like to see followed. Would anyone like to comment on that?

Bill Storrie

  1. Mr. Chairman. It is Bill Storrie again from Scotland.

Andy  LeMaistre


  1. Yes sir, Mr. Storrie.

Bill Storrie

  1. I would like to see the participants actually circulating a paper, just a brief letter so that we have time to look at that.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right, sir.

Bill Storrie

  1. There are questions being raised here and people do not have the time to respond and respond in depth. If we circulated a paper and all contributed to it we could then look at the various points and you could then draw an agenda off what you felt were the points being raised most frequently and then we could have an agenda sent out that these were the specific points that were going to be raised and we would have the background of the discussion paper.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I think that is a valid point. I am not at all sure that we have not in effect done that, today in the broad sense, in a broad brush stroke, in that I think it is clear to me that we see the need for some type of an international registration or process by which we can undertake to develop EPDs. It just seems to me that that is a logical way to go. How they would be shaped to accommodate the various environments and other differences is a difficult question and would take quite a bit of work with knowledgeable people. Are there other comments on how we might proceed from this point?

Hume MacDonald

  1. Mr. Chairman, it is Hume MacDonald from Australia. I believe that if we have to ...

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Mr. MacDonald? I am having a difficult time hearing you. Are you still there, Mr. MacDonald?

Hume MacDonald

  1. Can you hear me now?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes I can hear you sir. Would you start again? We lost the train of your comment.

Hume MacDonald

  1. Fine, let me start again. What I would suggest that a third paper be developed along the lines of the existing meeting paper but setting out the those areas throughout the conversation today that appear to have the most relevance or degree of importance and that those papers then go to each society representing each of the countries and after that is done that a further teleconference be held on the basis of these.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right. I believe that I understood what you proposed there.

Operator

  1. This is AT&T, I am just adding Don Robertson into the conference call.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good.

Don Robertson

(President of the Canadian Galloway Association)

  1. Carry on.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Don Robertson? This is Andy LeMaistre, I am chairing the program. Welcome to the conference.

Don Robertson

  1. Just carry on. I will listen on.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right. Mr. MacDonald, if I could summarize, what you are suggesting is that the proposed traits for EPDs that were circulated be reviewed by all participants, modified and commented on and returned to us to see where the commonalities lie?

Hume MacDonald

  1. Yes, particularly through each breed society, not only as individuals but through each breed society. Perhaps we will end up getting a hope or some degree of agreement and for the formation of the collection of the data on an international basis.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, absolutely, and I think that I would agree that most of the breed societies, or at least the U.S. breed society, is giving consideration to EPDs at this time. Your suggestion is that each of the breed societies work out a recommendation and we would end up with something that was satisfactory internationally, or was pretty much the same that everyone could use. This would make a lot of sense, considering the size of the breed. Very good. Well, we certainly appreciate those comments. Is there someone else who would like to comment?

John Jeffords

  1. I think one, this is John Jeffords.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. John, go right ahead, sir.

John Jeffords

  1. This is a comment concerning what Flora mentioned.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. John, you are very faint.

John Jeffords

  1. Can anybody hear me?

?    ?

  1. Yes, we can hear you better now.

John Jeffords

  1. A response to Flora's question to start, as to whether there are enough animals to produce EPDs, the Polled Hereford Association of the United States does believe that it is possible to create EPDs. I believe Darrell Riemer's society the American Galloway Breeders Association which signed on to have the Polled Herefords recorded and possibly have EPDs done by them as well. It is one thing for each association to keep their own record and it is another thing for them to all share the records and to put them in a common data base. At this point we may have numbers large enough that we may get more accurate EPDs if we combine our records. I do not know if Darrell is prepared to mention what the American Galloway Breeders is going to do for the AGBA, but I do believe that by all the societies ...

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right, John. You have faded or we lost you again.

John Jeffords

  1. Can you hear me again?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes.

John Jeffords

  1. Combining our data bases I think we will all benefit.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Okay. Mr. MacDonald, perhaps I could ask you again, would it make sense for us to circulate to everyone the proposed structure that the American Hereford Association could supply in terms of the various traits and things, that we could modify, that would go to the various breed associations for consideration. Does that make sense? That sound positive to you?

Hume MacDonald

  1. Positive.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. All right. Very good. Mr. Riemer, are you still there? Are you prepared to comment as to where the American Galloway Association is at this point?

Darrell Riemer

  1. Yeah. We had a Board Meeting and we approved going with the American Polled Hereford Association. They are going to do our pedigree and then ultimately we are going to try to get performance on these animals set up and our ultimate goal is to try to get a sire summary and EPDs. Right now they are doing it, it is an affiliate of the Polled Hereford Association, they are doing the registrations and performance records for seven different breeds right now, smaller type breeds, and they set up performance systems for each of those breeds and they seem like they are real cooperative people in that they will modify the program to specify for each breed.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you very much for that comment. Are there other comments on how we should proceed then from anyone on the floor at this point?

Hugh Crawford

  1. Hugh Crawford here. There are a few complications here that will not become important unless you are not prepared for them. Remember the international aspect of this endeavour. Pounds versus kilos. 200 day weaning weights versus 205-day weaning weights. And, different countries have completely different carcass evaluations procedures. We are talking about different countries here. Do not assume because we are all speaking English that we all mean the same things by the same words.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. That is a very good point Mr. Crawford. Thank you. Other comments as to how to proceed or general ideas?

Peter Sutherland

(Field Director, Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)

  1. Peter Sutherland from Australia here.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I am sorry, I did not catch the name sir.

Peter Sutherland

  1. Peter Sutherland from Australia. Field Officer for the Galloway Society.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Yes, sir.

Peter Sutherland

  1. I travel right around Australia looking at Galloway herds and one of the observations that I have made is that the Belted Galloway is a smaller animal in Australia but a lot of the breeders here do not feed them well enough compared with the solid breed Galloways and I was wondering whether that happens around in other parts of the world where the nutritional value is not put into the animal to give it the full growth.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Does anyone wish to respond to that?

Darrell Riemer

  1. This is Darrell Riemer. I would like to make a comment to that.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Go ahead Darrell.

Darrell Riemer

  1. When you do EPDs there is a place to list what kind of conditions those animals are under and that what a EPD is supposed to decipher the different types of conditions animals are under to try to give you a net pounds, negative or positive.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Very good. Thank you Mr. Riemer. Any other comments? We are fast approaching the end of the meeting and if I could just summarize for a minute and if someone wanted to comment on top of that; I think the process which we should follow is one of trying to circulate a proposed EPD system that might work on an international basis and to get that to the various breed associations for consideration in reporting back, on a timely basis, say within the next ninety days. That schedule may or may not be possible depending on what the meeting schedules are, but to be able to report back to see whether or not there is a consensus among the various breed associations then to combine this data into one bank that would be available to everyone, would be a first step for us to proceed. Is there any positive or negative comment about that proposal?

Peter McKeon

  1. Peter McKeon in Australia. I think that is probably a good way to initially tackle it, get some feed back from all the various societies and then possibly at that time each of the societies could nominate one or two representatives who could then follow up with a telephone hook up to discuss those results because otherwise the cost of this is going to be quite enormous.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Right. Okay. Let us undertake that procedure. Our plan is to report to each of the participants, this will be transcribed, and we will report the entire transcription to each of the participants and what we would do then is we will try to get together an outline of the Hereford program to see how that might fit with everyone and I would just encourage each of you of the fact that each of you has been willing to invest your time and energy to sign up this, would mean that you would be able to carry forward to your particular breed association and try to get some action. I think this is a watershed time for Belted Galloways on an international basis and we really need to take advantage of it at this time. One other comment that I would make regarding conference calls is that we did analyze the price and we find that it is significantly more expensive from New Zealand and Australia and we will try in the future to let everybody know the expense and to work up an equitable cost that would spread the cost equally to everyone around the world who wanted to participate. Are there any other comments before we close the meeting?

John Jeffords

  1. There is one, John Jeffords.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. John Jeffords, go ahead, sir.

John Jeffords

  1. Can everyone hear me loud enough? First of all we believe that we were having for a while was the tape machine here so thus we had to turn off the tape machine so there will not be a transcription.

Lynn Jeffords

  1. There may be, I took a lot of notes.

John Jeffords

  1. My wife took a lot of notes ...

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. And there is the transcriber, Carol ...

John Jeffords

  1. Denver was cut off, Ms Galloway was there so I believe it was the same situation the telephone line was creating a conflict with conference call.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. You are fading again, John.

John Jeffords

  1. In the future what we would have to do is check out how to record a conference all.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. We will make our best effort to make an accurate transcription of the various comments and to get that to everyone along with particulars on an outline of an EPD program that can be and we will take it from there. Are there other comments? Otherwise I am going to close the meeting I think we had this on a strict time basis and we are over that time now.

?    ?

  1. Can you give us an expected cost to run one of these?

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. I can tell you from the various countries, the cost of a two hour conference from New Zealand is $145.00, from Australia it was $150.00, these are U.S. dollars. Great Britain is $110.00, Canada was $52.00 and in the United States it was $38.00. I think that what we would try to do in the future is to equalize the costs as it obviously does not make sense for it to cost four times as much for New Zealand or Australia to participate. We will try to work out some equitable per head cost and we would all share the expense for the international link up. I think it was an excellent idea that it was proposed that there be some appointed representatives from each of the breed societies that would participate. Perhaps along with the various discussions that you individuals may have with the breed societies it could be that the breed society would underwrite a portion of the costs associated with your representatives to participate. That is all the information that I can give you at this time. We will try to get more information to you when we try to schedule another meeting.

?    ?

  1. Thank you.

Andy  LeMaistre

  1. Thank you sir. Well without any further ado, I certainly appreciate everyone's participation and I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to John and Lynn Jeffords for being the stimulus behind this. I know that they have probably visited with most of you personally and I think we are very fortunate to have their strong interest for Belted Galloway cattle that they would pursue this course, so I certainly am very appreciative to them and all of you and I look forward to having the opportunity to meet with you all again.

  2. End




Some Observations on Belted Galloways

Correspondence from William Storrie

Netherwood Farm, Bathgate, West Lothian

Our ongoing correspondence with the late William Storrie during the latter years of his life provided many provocative insights into the belting principles and other attributes of our breed. Mr. Storrie wrote interestingly and informatively from the vantage point of study and observation of the Netherwood herd, closed to outside bloodlines for almost 30 years. Some of his insightful comments have been published in the Belted Galloway Society's Breeders Handbook. Other observations written before and after the International Belted Galloway Teleconference in 1993 are offered below. Photos included are of the Netherwood herd and may be viewed in enlarged form by clicking on the image.

Netherwood, Bathgate,

West. Lothian. EH48. 4LF.

19 September 1993

To: Jane Faul

Dear Jane,

I doubt if I am the right person to comment on the perceived wisdom currently being traded on the genetics of Belted markings or mis-markings. I just happen to think that our current beliefs on the inheritance of 'marking' are poorly founded and have been for generations. I can think of no other explanation for the failure of many dedicated and competent breeders to eliminate 'mismarkings' and fix the 'proper markings'.

Most breeders will find it a bizarre hypotheses that Belties are white animals with black markings and that the ability of a developing cell to become pigmented and the subsequent expression of a white middle is dependent on a series of morphogenetic gradients. The idea is a relatively simple one. But the model it builds becomes increasingly complex as development proceeds. For the most part it is of academic interest only: in practical commercial breeding it doesn't really matter whether they are 'black on white' or 'white on black'. But it provides a better basis for understanding why numerous anomalies still occur in the markings

.... I enclose an initial statement sent to the members of the Teleconference held on 8th May together with a suggested draft followup which was sent as a private correspondence for discussion prior to making any definitive statement. It needs considerable cross references and acknowledgements to published research papers to be meaningful.

Kind Regards.

Wm. Storrie.

Tel. 0506/52967. or 636270.

Fax 0506/634320.

CompuServe Email 100136,2402 NSANET

Email SIBCAS_1. or RURTEL SIBCAS_2


Netherwood, Bathgate,

West. Lothian. EH48. 4LF.

To; All Invited Members of Teleconference 8th. May 1993.

Regrettably, I will be away from home and unable to take part in this conference, which may well be an historic event and a turning point in the fortunes of the Belted Galloway Breed.

Since this will largely be concerned with introductions I hope that the following will serve in my absence.

I am principally concerned with the conservation of the genetic endowment of the 'original' Beltie and operate within a closed nucleus founded on six foundation dams (two lines since discarded) and one bull line. The mature weight of the retained females is above 560 kg  (1230 lbs.). The seventeen and fifteen yr. old, weighed on the 27th. of this month were 510 & 520 at their mid lactation (end of winter weighing). That bull's lowest weighing, when standing at AI was 1020 kg. Some of the US members have walked the herd and have handled the present stock bull who is his son. He weighed 940 kg (2070 lbs.) on the 27th (160 kg less than his full condition weight). So my idea of 'original' is on the heavy side of average.

Conservation of genetic endowment in a small (40 females/4 lines) nucleus cannot conserve the genetic variation of the breed. It is simply a snapshot at one particular moment of time from one specific viewpoint. It is simply a reference point, not unlike the original Hereford Angus controls used in the Germ Plasm evaluation Program at Clay centre in the US, without the variation inherent in the vastly larger sample numbers. Determining more than one reference point, is crucial. I can only provide one reference point, one specific set of genetic endowment interacting with one particular environment. We could charge into increasing the numbers on the ground and get it disastrously wrong !

Conservation by MOET? In my initial program I collected 70 embryo. 56 are gene banked. All the original dam lines, bred back one generation to Firth King Henry and some semen from his son Burnside David (my original foundation bull).

To round off the 'hands on' experience Dr. Butson agreed to take four embryos into Canada and now has three calves on the ground and one to come. Mr. Chatfield has three and Mr. Randy Hadden in Georgia has two. They all came from a single flush from one donor (Netherwood Nan). Simply in number terms this donor, now six and a half and nursing her fourth natural calf, has already contributed 7 additions to the breed, banked 2, and probably another four in utero. Her fifteen year old dam is currently nursing her thirteenth calf and looks good for a few years yet. But, even if I never flush her again, she has already exceeded her dam's lifetime production.

Conservation by IVM/F (Invitro Maturation & Fertilization). During the program the team assisting in the work (Edinburgh Genetics, Dr J. Mylne) salvaged ovarian tissue, post mortem, from a seventeen year old, put down because of aged arthritis. From this tissue we recovered 32 oocytes, matured and fertilized 28, all of which graded as embryos but I elected (mistakenly) to limit the storage to 11 of the grade 1. With fourteen natural calves behind her, the extra eleven embryos was a considerable bonus.

Although I did it from a conservation aspect it has enormous potential to increase numbers. Much has still to be learned of breed specific problems, optimal donor and recipient criteria, etc. It still has significant cost penalties when used locally: somewhat less when used as a means of genetic exchange internationally. But improved demand for Belties would shift the balance and improved techniques will also bring costs down eventually. It is worth encouraging.

I consider an Embryo and Semen Register, in some form, essential. I grossly over-recorded my embryos for my conservation records. ... A much simpler record would be perfectly adequate for all other purposes. Here the IETS might be the best advisors.

Our common ground is to prevent the Belted Galloway from disappearing from the World's cattle population, even though our methods differ considerably. I am totally opposed to the introduction of alien genetics without the filter of a full five generation grading up register. I have the greatest respect for the finely tuned judgement of practical breeders who depend on cattle for their livelihood. The Herefords have hit the right button with their Baldy Beef initiative. We have an equally prepotent marker to stamp on Fl crossbreds and exploit in the same way. And retrieve from that crossbred pool the new dam line contributions from a few outstanding females being bred back to a Beltie for another four generations. We shouldn't sacrifice the existing Beltie dams to produce the slaughter generations: we need to hold on to them where they are and breed them pure ! !

I might as well take this opportunity to set my stall out.

I am not persuaded that EPD, BLUP or other methods of objective measurements, on their own and commonly used in breeds with large numbers, is appropriate for Belties at this time. We obviously, and urgently, need some easily measured traits of high heritability and commercial significance. Some "index of merit" of the Beltie's other importance characteristics bolted on to EPD might serve us better initially. Too many variables slows progress considerably. But relying on too few can be a disaster.

Some of the suggested EPDs without their related parameters would be meaningless to me. E.g., Height. Would a two year old bull 52 inches in height who was showing more than 16" of daylight under his ribs meet the criteria of chest depth? Or if he was 36" from shoulder to pins, 12" pins to pelvis and 24" shoulder to poll would these be appropriate length relationships for a Beltie? And weight? 1500 lbs in weight and at least 80" in girth. Knowing his EPD based on height and weight doesn't mean a lot without the others.

Testes mass without knowing the scrotal attachment poses a similar problem. The correlation between mass and fertility is soundly based. But the last thing anyone needs in a stock bull is testicles dangling like balls on a piece of string, knocking against his hocks. They need to be in a thick skinned scrotum with a broad firm attachment.

As far as characteristics are concerned, the following are what I think a typical Beltie should have. Not necessarily what they should be, or what breed standards say.

Polling characteristics? Belties are polled. Full stop.

Belties are Black or Dun if they are homozygous, carrying the Galloway dilution recessive. Anything else is a belted variant of another breed.

A full belt. Nice to see it about 14" wide across the back and not too wide on the underside but not critical. Other mismarks? Personally I wouldn't sacrifice an excellent or above average pureblood female from the breeding pool for a minor mismark. Simply move her out into the third or fourth generation of a grading up register, and use a bull excelling in marking on her. Slightly different with a bull. A slightly mismarked bull with a high 'commercial' EPD isn't going to harm the breed's reputation out working in a commercial beef herd. (That demand should almost be an automatic bonus if we get the pure blood criteria right). What do the Herefords do, nowadays, with a bull slightly mismarked about the head?

The only hair coat a Beltie should have is a survival coat. One that sheds rapidly in the spring upwards and forward from the hindquarters; and takes any buildup of lice nits with it before they hatch. The replacement summer coat should be short, shiny and smooth: it later thickens to form the winter undercoat. The undercoat should start to grease up in the autumn when the guard hairs start to show and lengthen: the function of the guard hairs is simply to gather rain and melting snow and channel it down the body quickly

I haven't seen or heard of any of those mentioned in Belties. I do a lot of sib test mating in my nucleus; son to mother, sire to daughter, full brother sister. So far I haven't turned up any serious deleterious recessives.

I test annually for TB, Brucella, EBL, IBR, Lepto Hardjo, BVD, an IPX for hidden virus and every three years for Johnes. But it has no commercial value whatsoever. Disease priority will vary from country to country and herd to herd. Belties are relatively disease (and parasite) resistant. Disease susceptible animals are probably culled, anyway, for other reasons.

Occasionally I have an animal with sunstroke. Never fatal and usually in a wide belted animal.

I select positively for dam longevity (the associated traits fall into place almost automatically -- feet, thrift, milk, survival coat, head protection, udder attachment, teat placement, mothering ability etc.). I discriminate punitively against poor teat placement or loose udder attachment.

Bulls are selected on the basis of their performance within their yearling peer

group. Any male that isn't steered gets the chance to be a bull. (Usually four or five.) A bull that fights his way to the top of the heap gets the rosette. Invariably that means he's the heaviest, develops the best bone & muscle structure, has the right kind of head and feet and is cocksure and masculine.The top two are mated to four of the worst heifers (two each) and the rest are fattened and killed as young bull beef (21 months and around 560 kg).

I select very positively for placid temperament in both sexes, simply because fighting with an ill-natured beast is now beyond me.

There is a broad measure of support within the UK for this kind of initiative. Inevitably it must be US led, because of the numbers, and that will mean compromise and give and take from all sides. Smaller societies will want to retain their autonomy within a framework of co-operation rather than compliance.

I hope there is something on the stall that may be of value. This initiative is exciting and has great promise. But it's a big league we're entering. This isn't the ornamental market. Someone has to be the devil's advocate and spell out just exactly what we're up against.

I am online to host computer networks in the US and Europe and can act as an Email postbox in the UK. The conference forums and bulletin boards are not connected with Belties but there is no reason why an attempt couldn't be made to set one up. One significant advantage (in addition to instantaneous transmission of files) is that a log of the proceedings is automatically kept and down loaded at the end of a session. I'm normally on to the US on CompuServe CB simulator (Handle 'Wooden Spoon') for an hour most Sundays from 11 pm GMT. Mostly trivial chat but no reason why it shouldn't be serious. It's relatively inexpensive. ... If any member is online it might be helpful to establish a communication link to start with. The user software is simplicity itself. No special computer knowledge is needed.

Kind Regards to all. I hope we can make it a success.

Wm. Storrie

Tel. 0506/52967. or 636270

Fax 0506/634320.

CompuServe Email ID Wm Storrie 100136,2402 (US)

NSANET SIBCAS_1. RURTEL SIBCAS_2 (UK)